Curse

Takeko Nakano · Aug 17, 2005, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Buying Guild Wars stuff on ebay is both morally and legally wrong. It sucks all the fun out of it, and also ruins the in-game economy by people buying stuff up outside. If you don't use ebay, everyone else will be cash rich - so decent items will sell for far outside your maximum price range.

Guild Wars is about FUN. It doesn't matter if it takes you time to get money and decent equipment. It's just a game. In any case, drops for ascended characters will be improved with the main update, so things should get better.

Also, as someone pointed out, it may well violate the user agreement so you could get banned from using Guild Wars and other games. Is that worth it?

Algren Cole · Aug 17, 2005, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

Yes, it does.

Short for End-User License Agreement, the type of license used for most software. An EULA is a legal contract between the manufacturer and/or the author and the end user of an application. The EULA details how the software can and cannot be used and any restrictions that the manufacturer imposes (e.g., most EULA’s of proprietary software prohibit the user from sharing the software with anyone else).
Not every EULA is the same. Some contracts stipulate acceptance of the agreement simply by opening the shrink-wrapped package; some require the user to mail back to the manufacturer a signed agreement or acceptance card; some require the user to accept the agreement after the application is installed by clicking on an acceptance form that appears on the user’s monitor. This last method is typical of applications that can be downloaded from the Internet. In all instances, the user has the option of not accepting the EULA, subsequently surrendering the rights and ability to use the software.

As in typical legal contracts, the EULA protects both parties from liability if the software is used in a way not intended by the manufacturer or author.

The EULA also is often referred to as the software license or user license.

source - http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/E/EULA.html

roflmao @ EULAs having any legal ramifications...

Dax · Aug 17, 2005, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by strcpy

I would guess the best answer is a combination. Anet profits most from banning their accounts only having them purchase a new one. And secondly that it costs more than it saves to prosecute them (you can usually only recover damages - what damages will you recieve from a botter?). This is still a loophole, just not the clever "I'm using GP as a measure of time and only selling time" thing. Judges will squash that, but other than a "Don't do it anymore, but if you do then oh well" what can Anet get from such a ruling?

Although it's an interesting argument if Anet make money off selling new accounts to banned people, it really doen't make a difference to me.

If I may be completely selfish for a moment, I personally don't want my gameplay experience to be screwed up by people who somehow feel the need not to bother themselves with playing the game. I should not be the one that has to bend just because I'm playing the game they way it was designed to be played (for better or worse). It against the rules they agreed to when they started playing...period.

trelloskilos · Aug 17, 2005, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takeko Nakano

Buying Guild Wars stuff on ebay is both morally and legally wrong. It sucks all the fun out of it, and also ruins the in-game economy by people buying stuff up outside. If you don't use ebay, everyone else will be cash rich - so decent items will sell for far outside your maximum price range.

Guild Wars is about FUN. It doesn't matter if it takes you time to get money and decent equipment. It's just a game. In any case, drops for ascended characters will be improved with the main update, so things should get better.

Also, as someone pointed out, it may well violate the user agreement so you could get banned from using Guild Wars and other games. Is that worth it?

I agree with every single word, and so do the good majority of players and thread posters alike...

So how the hell did this thread reach 12 pages of people just saying "but", "but", "but"....?

So far, the arguments for buying Ebay gold are as follows:

1. I don't have the time to grind. I have a real life and would prefer to just be able to have gold without "Working" for it in the game.

Now, the problem here is that if you were to buy ANY game, you need to invest time in it if you want to play it. The alternative is to just enter a cheat code so you can complete it in ub3r-quick time, but you don't get satisfaction out of it.

2. The economy is nerfed. I need that money so I can get that "Godly" weapon/15k armour etc.

No you don't. A "Godly" Gold Max damage longbow will do the exact same damage as an ascalon longbow, available for 5 minotaur horns from the collector just outside the Elona reach mission. 15k armour too. You can buy 1.5k armour (total expense 7.5k) from Droknars, or even just hang around in the desert for a bit and collect the same tier of armour from collectors for free!! (Well, apart from 5 dune burrower jaws, forgotten seals etc...)

3. I play PVP. Gold doesn't affect me. I just want it to buy upgrades in PvE.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but buying a rune doesn't unlock it, does it? Gold doesn't matter at all in PvP. FACTION does, and sorry to say, but Faction's not on sale at Ebay.

4. I can do what I like with my money. It's not like I'm spoiling anybody's fun, right?

Wrong. The economy goes pear-shaped, other players who worked for hours to earn their money fairly get the hump, Anet have to nerf areas just to keep some status quo, and guess what. You're not even having fun. All the money you need=no challenge, no purpose, no excitement over your next drop, and no point in playing.EVERYBODY'S fun is spoilt!

5. I can do what I like with my money, and don't give 2 shits about anyone elses' fun

Well, no argument there. I hope you get kicked out of the game, cos your careless and selfish attitude ruins it for others, encourages cheating, and puts your own potential enjoyment of the game at great risk as you breach the terms and conditions on your GW account.

It's wrong, no ifs, on buts.

Stur · Aug 17, 2005, 06:30 PM // 18:30

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=21206

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=8425

Just 2 of the MENY threads regarding this issue. The secondary market has become a part of the reality of the online gaming community. Better learn to live with it because its not going anywhere, and mean hearted posts pointing fingers and calling names won't make a different, they only make you look immature. Some games will deal with it one way and others in another. Try looking past your own views and see the big picture.

conker · Aug 17, 2005, 06:33 PM // 18:33

y do u guys care so much its not ur money who cares what others are buying. ur like saying since they are buyin pixels, its kinda like with decorations around the house. u dont have to have them, peopel still pay like 1500 dollars on decroations-whihc is not needed.. so shut the hell up jesus, stop nagging like little girls

Dax · Aug 17, 2005, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stur

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=21206

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=8425

Just 2 of the MENY threads regarding this issue. The secondary market has become a part of the reality of the online gaming community. Better learn to live with it because its not going anywhere, and mean hearted posts pointing fingers and calling names won't make a different, they only make you look immature. Some games will deal with it one way and others in another. Try looking past your own views and see the big picture.

The big picture is it's against the EULA...sorry.

Maybe if more people who played followed it wouldn't be a reality.
see.... no name calling

Quote:

Originally Posted by conker

y do u guys care so much its not ur money who cares what others are buying. ur like saying since they are buyin pixels, its kinda like with decorations around the house. u dont have to have them, peopel still pay like 1500 dollars on decroations-whihc is not needed.. so shut the hell up jesus, stop nagging like little girls

I could ask the same to you about replying to threads that you could easily just ignore (although I myself try to follow the forum guidelines about abusing the english language whenever I can).

Why do you care?

conker · Aug 17, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

hmm maybe becuz i look on to his topic -not the ebay one the riverside inn and all the time i see this on the first one.. it annoys the crap out of me and i put that up there becuz this isnt the only place i see where ppl are whining about ebay users when they could not care about the ppl that are stupid enough to use ebay(yes i do think thye are stupid to i just dont care if they ebay or not).. i always see it in the game, here, and some other sites..

Dax · Aug 17, 2005, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by conker

hmm maybe becuz i look on to his topic -not the ebay one the riverside inn and all the time i see this on the first one.. it annoys the crap out of me and i put that up there becuz this isnt the only place i see where ppl are whining about ebay users when they could not care about the ppl that are stupid enough to use ebay(yes i do think thye are stupid to i just dont care if they ebay or not).. i always see it in the game, here, and some other sites..

I guess we share something in common.
I get annoyed when people talk about buying gold on ebay, and advertisements for gold buying on this site.

Actually this thread hasn't been on top for a while. And you do realize everytime you post that you think it's stupid it stays up that much longer....so you're not really helping your cause.

I tend to ignore post I don't like though, seems far easier not to read through them. Evidently someone is interested in this forum.

Drinking Frog · Aug 17, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

I have read this whole thread. It is time to clear up a few things.

Before we go any further, let's all agree that GW is a game. Guild Wars is a game. Guild Wars is entertainment. Unless you work at Anet or one of those botters' sweatshops or someplace related to those outfits, Guild Wars is a game.

Now, those who say that botting and buying the botters' gold on EBay skews the game's economy are absolutely right. Throwing all that gold into the economy most certainly causes inflation. Let's just get that out of the way. Smith and Keynes may not have it all figured out, but they hit that one dead on.

However, let's get something else clear, too. ANet has messed up the economy more than any botter. Something else Smith and Keynes got right is that you decrease price either by increasing supply to satisfy demand or by somehow reducing demand. You sure as heck don't decrease price by decreasing supply. Nerfing all those areas will not and has not put much of a hurt on any botter. While the botters cannot get as much gold per unit time, neither can the legitimate players, so the value of the botters' gold goes up. They get less, but it is worth more. The same goes for those players that were around before the Great Nerfing. I don't even want to go into what last week's experiment has done.

Next, as a few members have mentioned, you have a number of different players in this game. Some have more time, and some have more money. Some have lots of both, some have neither. Some look to the game as an escape, and some look to for an ego boost. Some enjoy farming, and some do not. Some actually look to the game for sense of accomplishment, and some just look for a little fun. I have no survey or anything like that, but I expect that most of the active posters here are students with a great deal more time than anyone with a full time job and children.

So, what does all this have to do with EBay? When a new player enters the game, that new player did not have the benefit of gaining gold and items before the Great Nerfing. That new player has a much more difficult time getting gold, items, and crafting materials through drops. There just isn't as much. A player could just about get to Kryta and barely afford the armor upgrades in Ascalon. The drops just aren't there, especially when you divide them up among party members. To make up for what is no longer out there, the new player can either spend some weeks farming (because no new player is going to pull down any 2k/hour, especially with a party) or who knows how many hours trading, or that new player can get some gold from someone else.

Now, if you are a student or if you do not have children, you may be willing to spend hours and hours and hours farming or trading. On the other hand, if you have a full time job and a family, you might be willing to spend a few bucks to skip over that. I work about 45 hours per week and have children at home. On an average weekday, I have about 1-2 hours of pure free time. By that, I mean I have about 1-2 hours when I am not sleeping, working, getting ready for work, commuting, going through the mail, dealing with household matters (e.g., paying bills or maintaining the house), eating, or spending some important time with my children. Weekends vary, but it's rare to have a block of hours to do much of anything.

I just described a fairly typical adult life, so I am certain that my situation is far from rare in the GW world. For that reason, I have absolutely no problem with someone spending an extra $5-10 to improve their enjoyment of a game, especially when that person already dropped $50 for the game. Yep, it does cause some measure of inflation, but you can look to ANet and their terrible economic policy about that. Do not blame the new player who has to react to the catastrophe ANet caused.

For those that say buying gold on EBay is against the EULA, you may be right. The terms of that EULA are not very specific, and they are not very clear. I know a fair amount about EULAs, and I know that they are very strictly interpreted against the company that writes it. ANet could have written the EULA with specific terms to address this sort of thing, but they did not, and that might be a problem for them (or it may have been their design).

To those that look at spending a few bucks to save hours and hours as "lazy," or those that say anyone who would do such a thing needs to reexmaine their lives, I just have to ask where in the world do you get off with that? Like many others who play this game, I have worked hard and I continue to work hard in real life. I and many others who play this game have already been grinding and farming for thousands of hours in real life. If I or someone else in my situation wants to spend an extra ten bucks so that we don't have to worry about gold in this game and, thereby, enjoy this game much more, then we are going to do it. If you think that is because we are lazy, then you are the one that needs to reevaluate life, friend. Go out there and see what it takes to truly earn your first "100 plat," and then we can have a chat about what's "lazy."

DFrog

NIB · Aug 17, 2005, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Facts :

1. Finding a good item is pure luck. You dont find a good item cause you are the pwner. Finding an item DOESNT require any skill.
2. Grinding isnt part of the game. It is just a stupid byproduct. Pvp is the major part of the game. Thus i prefer playing pvp 24/7 and still buy an item, than to spend grinding 24/7.
3. Grinding takes no skill. It just takes tons of time. A bot can do it. A monkey can do it. I'd rather use my superior skills for something more enjoyful and meaningful(pvp for example) than doing something that a monkey can do for me.

Whether it is against eula means nothing for me. I havent even bought anything. I am just debating the whole thing just for the kicks and for the morality of the thing. Someone said "Would you buy yourself a place in the top 10 chess players"? This is the perception of most ppl that are against trading RL money for in game items. But it is so wrong as i explained above.

Acquiring items doesnt require skill or even in game efficiency. Grinding isnt a part of the game. Acquiring items is pretty much random. Just cause you found 50 golden stormbows with above 50% modifers, doesnt make you a better player. It also doesnt mean that you "experienced more of the game". It just makes you a poor loser with lots of time in his/her hands and who also happened to be lucky.

Therefore, buying in game items with real money doesnt break any moral or in game mechanics. The fact that this need to buy money attracts bots, means nothing to me.

Bots are Anet's problem. If they were any smart, they would endorse all these transactions and they would hunt down bot users like crazy. They just dont care though. It would cost insane ammount of money to hunt down bot users. They just dont understand that bot users hurt the game even more than cheaters. Although in gw, the economy isnt that important, so this entire thing isnt that important.

IlikeGW · Aug 17, 2005, 10:49 PM // 22:49

If you're tempted to BUY your way through a game, it's time to uninstall it, because that's just stupid.

NIB · Aug 17, 2005, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Quote:

If you're tempted to BUY your way through a game,

Didnt you read what i wrote? Buy my way through the game? What way? The way of grinding? Grinding is the game? Grinding isnt a major part of the game. It is just a byproduct of the game. Pvp is the game. Not grinding.

Spartan2 · Aug 17, 2005, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Not eBay;
That is the answer.
Let this thread die.
Morality has been lost
Many moons ago.
Yet flaming,
Unceasing,
Continues in wake.
Two polar extremes
Struggle for appeal.
None will win.
All will suffer.
Drop this thread
And we shall see;
How much more peaceful
This thread may be.

Dax · Aug 18, 2005, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drinking Frog

I have read this whole thread. It is time to clear up a few things.

Before we go any further, let's all agree that GW is a game. Guild Wars is a game. Guild Wars is entertainment. Unless you work at Anet or one of those botters' sweatshops or someplace related to those outfits, Guild Wars is a game.

Now, those who say that botting and buying the botters' gold on EBay skews the game's economy are absolutely right. Throwing all that gold into the economy most certainly causes inflation. Let's just get that out of the way. Smith and Keynes may not have it all figured out, but they hit that one dead on.

However, let's get something else clear, too. ANet has messed up the economy more than any botter. Something else Smith and Keynes got right is that you decrease price either by increasing supply to satisfy demand or by somehow reducing demand. You sure as heck don't decrease price by decreasing supply. Nerfing all those areas will not and has not put much of a hurt on any botter. While the botters cannot get as much gold per unit time, neither can the legitimate players, so the value of the botters' gold goes up. They get less, but it is worth more. The same goes for those players that were around before the Great Nerfing. I don't even want to go into what last week's experiment has done.

Next, as a few members have mentioned, you have a number of different players in this game. Some have more time, and some have more money. Some have lots of both, some have neither. Some look to the game as an escape, and some look to for an ego boost. Some enjoy farming, and some do not. Some actually look to the game for sense of accomplishment, and some just look for a little fun. I have no survey or anything like that, but I expect that most of the active posters here are students with a great deal more time than anyone with a full time job and children.

So, what does all this have to do with EBay? When a new player enters the game, that new player did not have the benefit of gaining gold and items before the Great Nerfing. That new player has a much more difficult time getting gold, items, and crafting materials through drops. There just isn't as much. A player could just about get to Kryta and barely afford the armor upgrades in Ascalon. The drops just aren't there, especially when you divide them up among party members. To make up for what is no longer out there, the new player can either spend some weeks farming (because no new player is going to pull down any 2k/hour, especially with a party) or who knows how many hours trading, or that new player can get some gold from someone else.

Now, if you are a student or if you do not have children, you may be willing to spend hours and hours and hours farming or trading. On the other hand, if you have a full time job and a family, you might be willing to spend a few bucks to skip over that. I work about 45 hours per week and have children at home. On an average weekday, I have about 1-2 hours of pure free time. By that, I mean I have about 1-2 hours when I am not sleeping, working, getting ready for work, commuting, going through the mail, dealing with household matters (e.g., paying bills or maintaining the house), eating, or spending some important time with my children. Weekends vary, but it's rare to have a block of hours to do much of anything.

I just described a fairly typical adult life, so I am certain that my situation is far from rare in the GW world. For that reason, I have absolutely no problem with someone spending an extra $5-10 to improve their enjoyment of a game, especially when that person already dropped $50 for the game. Yep, it does cause some measure of inflation, but you can look to ANet and their terrible economic policy about that. Do not blame the new player who has to react to the catastrophe ANet caused.

For those that say buying gold on EBay is against the EULA, you may be right. The terms of that EULA are not very specific, and they are not very clear. I know a fair amount about EULAs, and I know that they are very strictly interpreted against the company that writes it. ANet could have written the EULA with specific terms to address this sort of thing, but they did not, and that might be a problem for them (or it may have been their design).

To those that look at spending a few bucks to save hours and hours as "lazy," or those that say anyone who would do such a thing needs to reexmaine their lives, I just have to ask where in the world do you get off with that? Like many others who play this game, I have worked hard and I continue to work hard in real life. I and many others who play this game have already been grinding and farming for thousands of hours in real life. If I or someone else in my situation wants to spend an extra ten bucks so that we don't have to worry about gold in this game and, thereby, enjoy this game much more, then we are going to do it. If you think that is because we are lazy, then you are the one that needs to reevaluate life, friend. Go out there and see what it takes to truly earn your first "100 plat," and then we can have a chat about what's "lazy."

DFrog

I respect your rational views on the subject, but I do disagree with a few points.

First let me just say that I fall into the 'older' group of people who have lot's of responsibilities, and find my self with less and less time. I don't claim to be the ultra uber player with lots of money. GW is a awesome game in the fact that it offers players a chance to either jump in and play with relativey little time and make progress.

Gameplay rules, eulas aside, I think it's pretty safe to say this isn't really about a person who doesn't have the time to play.. is it? It is about players who want to have everything at thier disposal right away. Funny with all things being equal at the beginning people were having a blast with thier lowbie characters. This isn't about grinding thousands of hours just to have fun. Essentially generally it is a person who just doesn't want to take the time. Sorry if lazy is a bad word...

The folks who sell gold and use bots, do more than hurt the economy by supply and demand. How many complains have I seen about them adding mobs to areas? How many posts do you see on nurfs? Sure maybe Anet is not addressing the problem correctly, but do you really want to encourage the use of more bots? Bottom line people who buy gold just make it worse for the people who don't.... even if it's a small degree.

In short I do find it surprising that anyone who enjoys playing this game would be able to rationalise buying gold or items. I've been called a fanboi grind monkey since I've posted in this thread so I think the term 'lazy' is pretty inocuous...... so I'm not feeling that bad about saying it. I do have some experience in the game industry, enough to know that it isn't heathly for the longevity and the gameplay experience. It may seem that way now, but it's not.

SOT · Aug 18, 2005, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Algren Cole

roflmao @ EULAs having any legal ramifications...

roflmao at anything you have ever posted and thinking it was meant to contribute anything more than your lack of attention and the need to fix that

Drinking Frog · Aug 18, 2005, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

I respect your rational views on the subject, but I do disagree with a few points.

First let me just say that I fall into the 'older' group of people who have lot's of responsibilities, and find my self with less and less time. I don't claim to be the ultra uber player with lots of money. GW is a awesome game in the fact that it offers players a chance to either jump in and play with relativey little time and make progress.

Gameplay rules, eulas aside, I think it's pretty safe to say this isn't really about a person who doesn't have the time to play.. is it? It is about players who want to have everything at thier disposal right away. Funny with all things being equal at the beginning people were having a blast with thier lowbie characters. This isn't about grinding thousands of hours just to have fun. Essentially generally it is a person who just doesn't want to take the time. Sorry if lazy is a bad word...

The folks who sell gold and use bots, do more than hurt the economy by supply and demand. How many complains have I seen about them adding mobs to areas? How many posts do you see on nurfs? Sure maybe Anet is not addressing the problem correctly, but do you really want to encourage the use of more bots? Bottom line people who buy gold just make it worse for the people who don't.... even if it's a small degree.

In short I do find it surprising that anyone who enjoys playing this game would be able to rationalise buying gold or items. I've been called a fanboi grind monkey since I've posted in this thread so I think the term 'lazy' is pretty inocuous...... so I'm not feeling that bad about saying it. I do have some experience in the game industry, enough to know that it isn't heathly for the longevity and the gameplay experience. It may seem that way now, but it's not.

Dax,

Thank you for your respectful and deliberate response.

The bottom line on this issue is that different people buy and play this game for many different reasons. By the same token, different people find entertainment in different ways. I bought the game for some occasional entertainment, and I find no entertainment in grinding just to accumulate the wealth necessary to enjoy many other aspects of the game. When it comes to pure entertainment, I feel no shame in purchasing services that save my time, so long as I can afford them. Just as I could afford $50 for the game, I can afford another $5-10 to get to the part of the game I enjoy.

If you enjoy the grind, then more power to you. If you feel some moral or ethical obligation to grind, then I applaude you. If I were to purchase gold or an item on EBay and, by doing so, reduce your enjoyment to some degree, then I really do not know what to say to you about that. When it comes to this game, frankly, I prefer my enjoyment to yours or anyone else's. I am not particularly proud of my selfish position, but I also do not apologize for it.

To address your surprise, I would find no diffculty enjoying GW after buying gold. I enjoy the missions, I enjoy the arena, and I enjoy quests. I enjoy exploring to the extent I must do so find new and interesting places and elite skills. I do not enjoy grinding through the same areas over and over to acquire wealth. You are absolutely right that I do not want to take the time to grind. I spend enough time working and grinding in real life so that I may enjoy my entertainment. I do not want to spend more within the game, itself, and it seems that buying a bit of gold and an item or two on EBay would be a nearly perfect solution to avoid that. Without a doubt, I would give up some enjoyment due to exploration and discovery, but it would be well worth it to avoid some hours and hours of grinding.

For those who find the EBay market a problem, you are barking up the wrong tree when you try to convince people not to participate in that market. Trying to convince either the buyers or the sellers is betting against human nature. If the opportunity is there, people will exploit it. You cannot bet against human nature; you will lose every time.

If you are concerned about the longevity of the game due to the botters, then you need to get on ANet's back. However, be careful what you wish for. So far, ANet's solutions seem to add more to the problem and threaten the game's longevity more than the botters.

In the end, though, I am not concerned that I can find a game where the field is always perfectly level, skill always is more important than hours played, there is no monthly fee, and every game is an intellectual challange and learning experience with little or no grind. I already know where it is. It is chess. Chess has a large group of long-term players that are often looking to play, to study the game intensely, and to help newcomers. Even better, wealth is of no consequence in the game, itself, and of little consequence in accessing the game, so you have no secondary market. Indeed, you cannot have such a market, as you have no asset in the game but your own skill. Should Guild Wars fail by my actions or someone else's, I still have my set. If I needed to, I could play with pebbles in the dirt or, for that matter, just the dirt. Did someone say chess is difficult to learn? That wouldn't be a tad lazy, would it?

DFrog

Dax · Aug 18, 2005, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drinking Frog

If you enjoy the grind, then more power to you. If you feel some moral or ethical obligation to grind, then I applaude you. If I were to purchase gold or an item on EBay and, by doing so, reduce your enjoyment to some degree, then I really do not know what to say to you about that. When it comes to this game, frankly, I prefer my enjoyment to yours or anyone else's. I am not particularly proud of my selfish position, but I also do not apologize for it.

Well, I don't grind or atleast my not in what I percieve as grinding. If I play through a mission or go out and farm for and hour a day is that considered grinding to you? If you need to grind, what was it, thousands of hours to get anywehere I'd be playing for quite awhile.

In GW you need no travel time from town to town (provided you've been there), you do not need to wait for a party, you can get a instant lvl 20 character if you wanna play PvP, every zone is instanced no competion, and you cannot delevel. I don't know how they could make the game any less time consuming.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drinking Frog

To address your surprise, I would find no diffculty enjoying GW after buying gold. I enjoy the missions, I enjoy the arena, and I enjoy quests. I enjoy exploring to the extent I must do so find new and interesting places and elite skills. I do not enjoy grinding through the same areas over and over to acquire wealth. You are absolutely right that I do not want to take the time to grind. I spend enough time working and grinding in real life so that I may enjoy my entertainment. I do not want to spend more within the game, itself, and it seems that buying a bit of gold and an item or two on EBay would be a nearly perfect solution to avoid that. Without a doubt, I would give up some enjoyment due to exploration and discovery, but it would be well worth it to avoid some hours and hours of grinding.

Well of course I cannot know what is fun to you or anyone else. But it seems to me everything you describe takes no extra gold. I dunno I had no trouble going to new places just running the missions. I didn't do it in a week, but why would I want to. This part involves no grinding, unless you want to buy uber gear and rush through quickly or compete with people who have spent more time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drinking Frog

For those who find the EBay market a problem, you are barking up the wrong tree when you try to convince people not to participate in that market. Trying to convince either the buyers or the sellers is betting against human nature. If the opportunity is there, people will exploit it. You cannot bet against human nature; you will lose every time.

This is true, but nothing wrong with debating it. Human nature or not I can't imagine why people would defend it though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drinking Frog

If you are concerned about the longevity of the game due to the botters, then you need to get on ANet's back. However, be careful what you wish for. So far, ANet's solutions seem to add more to the problem and threaten the game's longevity more than the botters.

Very true, but if people didn't do it...well you know what I mean

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drinking Frog

Chess has a large group of long-term players that are often looking to play, to study the game intensely, and to help newcomers. Even better, wealth is of no consequence in the game, itself, and of little consequence in accessing the game, so you have no secondary market. Indeed, you cannot have such a market, as you have no asset in the game but your own skill. Should Guild Wars fail by my actions or someone else's, I still have my set. If I needed to, I could play with pebbles in the dirt or, for that matter, just the dirt. Did someone say chess is difficult to learn? That wouldn't be a tad lazy, would it?

That analogy doesn't work, in fact it works in my favor. You can play chess at any level. If you wanna play a higher level you take time to learn and practice (hmmm sounds like a grind). So not taking the time or not having the time to learn is one thing, but you can still enjoy it. You can enjoy
GW with little time just at a different level.

The difference is unlike chess, people are not relying on thier skill (as they should) they are relying (unfortunately) on the items they can buy with gold. But if they wanted to rely purely on themselves they wouldn't need gold, even if it took them longer due to time restraints.

People who buy gold just want other people to take the time to do it for them. So essentially your buying the time from someone else. Something that you paid for to spend time on you can pay someone to do it for you....boggles my mind.

spartans · Aug 20, 2005, 02:20 AM // 02:20

"People who buy gold just want other people to take the time to do it for them. So essentially your buying the time from someone else. Something that you paid for to spend time on you can pay someone to do it for you....boggles my mind."

What boggles my mind is the lame arguments, ok what you have here is called leverage people, look around its everywhere. Think home loans, cars boats hell look at your employer even, pays you to do shit he doesnt want to or cant do. So what is the difference ..please explain with diagrams in crayon as im really really stupid.

Actually just draw the outlines, I will color them in later, gosh I can just see all the rainbows and butterflys, and isnt the world just perfect

DioneR · Aug 24, 2005, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Everyone makes a good point, the only reason i see buying money on ebay is for fow armor or to advance your guild further(as a leader)